Comments on Vagmi's musings: The dumbest idea ever

Java and C# programmer is not good person.

2008-07-04T01:37:16.690-07:00

Java and C# programmer is not good person.

@Mark,Thanks for opening up the discussion. I prob...

2008-07-03T22:24:53.051-07:00

@Mark,

Thanks for opening up the discussion. I probably did not clarify my concerns adequately earlier. I have made up for this in an open letter to Programeter.

Executive Summary: Measuring quantity is no substi...

2008-07-03T10:41:05.813-07:00

Executive Summary: Measuring quantity is no substitute for evaluating quality.

Hi Mark,

The problem is that programmers ought to be measured by the functionality of the product, ability to meet deadlines, compatibility, organization, thoroughness of testing, documentation, flexibility of solution, etc.

None of these are quantities that can be graphed in any meaningful way.

Accomplishing tasks have little to do with the amount of time or effort that one exerts. Moreover, it's the way one goes about addressing the tasks at hand that are crucial and important.

Deploying such a watchdog program at all displays a complete disregard for the fundamental fact and in my mind, would be impetus for me to turn in my resignation.

I am from Programeter - hope I will survive the cr...

2008-07-03T07:35:54.524-07:00

I am from Programeter - hope I will survive the criticts after mentioning that ;).

There are so many questions in the post and comments, so I can't aswer all of those in just one reply. So if I missed yours, go here and post them.

But some comments are here:
* I am not sure I understand why all programmers so afraid of being measured. Would you imagine all salesmen quiting the company because of introduction of CRM? Good programmers should not be afraid of any indicator.
* Yes, I agree "stupid" managers can get it wrong. But stupid managers will get it wrong with or without Programeter.
* Lots of comments, about cheating the system. Go and try to cheat it ;) if you cheat at least 3 of our indicators during one reporting period - Programeter will quit measuring your company as a bonus ;)

if you have more questions, let me know!

Er, Jordi, check this out:http://www.programeter.c...

2008-07-03T06:00:35.087-07:00

Er, Jordi, check this out:

http://www.programeter.com/opinions

Seem's you're being used as marketing material.

It really reflects the direction of the general discussion - that's why I like it.

~irony~I want that!~/irony~ scnr

2008-07-03T00:33:25.814-07:00

~irony~I want that!~/irony~ *scnr*

I thought that was a joke!

2008-07-03T00:10:35.663-07:00

I thought that was a joke!

WTF! ... I guess they should run the software on t...

2008-07-02T23:23:06.393-07:00

WTF! ... I guess they should run the software on their code and publish the results! :) ... that would be a good point to start with .... Really man ... who came up with such a crap idea ? Programeter? Gimme a break!

Ya, this seems pretty sad... But somehow I'm sure ...

2008-07-02T18:27:27.174-07:00

Ya, this seems pretty sad... But somehow I'm sure somebody in management has bought into it.

It might be useful if used correctly. Maybe you co...

2008-07-02T15:38:17.151-07:00

It might be useful if used correctly. Maybe you could measure some people and projects for a while and then with those numbers, you could do things like this:
1) If someone seems a lot less productive than the rest, talk to him, find out why. (maybe he just writes better, more compact code)
2) If someone the metris on someone have been constant for a while, and suddenly they drop/rise, that might be a reason to look into it.
3) You could maybe compare ratios of measures for different people for different projects. If person A seems to be working on 80% of his usual "productivity" on project 1, and person B at 90% on project 2, maybe if you switch them, you will get above 100% for both of them.
4) and probably more...

You can probably easily do these things with reviews and a lot of conversation, but the thing is that a tool could automatically detect when something is worth looking into. If (management) resources this may help the organisation.

I don't know about you, but the thought of some sy...

2008-07-02T15:00:10.125-07:00

I don't know about you, but the thought of some system out there having direct access to our source code is not exactly comforting.

But it's got a cool icon...

2008-07-02T14:26:08.059-07:00

But it's got a cool icon...

The real question is if you have Programeter, why ...

2008-07-02T14:23:28.131-07:00

The real question is if you have Programeter, why do you need a manager?

Here's the problem with loc's (lines of code)K&R C...

2008-07-02T13:32:15.382-07:00

Here's the problem with loc's (lines of code)

K&R C has the following prototype style:

(1) int

(2) main(argc, argv)

(3) int argc;

(4) char *argv[];

(5) {

While these days, you can do this:

(1) int main(int argc, char*argv[]) {

Wow, Programmer 1 is magically five times more productive simply for using an older coding style.

Additionally, the system rewards those that write bloated code that may be slower, more convoluted, and poorly designed.

So the people staying on board will write bad, slow, hard to maintain code in 1985 style.

Mission Accomplished!

hey - someone will make money on this because in g...

2008-07-02T11:20:02.042-07:00

hey - someone will make money on this because in general "babies need a babysitter".

btw...there was no tp in the can so i used your TPS report to wipe my a$$

I love how in the graphic there are two employees ...

2008-07-02T11:01:34.947-07:00

I love how in the graphic there are two employees in Bangalore and only one in Boston... *rolleyes*

I actualy think that in the right hands this tools...

2008-07-02T09:13:50.612-07:00

I actualy think that in the right hands this tools can be useful.
It's better to have the sumarized data than not to have the data, what you/the manager do with it is another issue entirely. Obviously you can't fire people based on some automatic analysis of the SVN repository, but it might give you indication of things to check further.

Innovative Design Optimization Technology

2008-07-02T08:51:04.533-07:00

Innovative Design Optimization Technology

I have to say that in every organization I've been...

2008-07-02T08:33:48.806-07:00

I have to say that in every organization I've been in past a certain size, there have been individuals who contributed little to the organization and you knew as a programmer in the trenches concealed their lack of work with a lot of talk. If you aren't getting to review the code yourself, detecting such a subterfuge is hard.

You answered your own question there. After a merger, the first thing to do is go through management and get rid of folks who are using a line-counting tool to measure their programmer productivity instead of code reviews.

Managers don't even have to be developers to do this - just set up peer code review sessions every so often and everyone has to put their latest function point on the screen for discussion. Managers can just observe the interaction and figure out who's not pulling their weight (a side benefit is that the threat of this may make individuals who tend towards laziness get more done)

Idots are stupd!

2008-07-02T08:21:48.236-07:00

Idots are stupd!

Extremely retarded. Extremely.I'm at loss for word...

2008-07-02T07:45:31.530-07:00

Extremely retarded. Extremely.

I'm at loss for words.

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate and say that th...

2008-07-02T07:36:56.886-07:00

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate and say that these are hard numbers with a specific meaning and as long as you don't lose sight of that, it could be quite useful.

Yes, of course sometimes it takes a brilliant programmer a week to find the right single line of code (for bug fixes, for example). That's fine as long as you take these as "metrics" and not "more is better".

I have to say that in every organization I've been in past a certain size, there have been individuals who contributed little to the organization and you knew as a programmer in the trenches concealed their lack of work with a lot of talk. If you aren't getting to review the code yourself, detecting such a subterfuge is hard.

On the other hand, I have no doubt that this will mostly be used to for stupid and evil purposes. ("Why is Jenkins writing ten times as many lines?" "Well, sir, I'm working on the Reed-Solomon codes, and he's checking in automatically generated GUI programs." "I don't want to hear that, more lines or else!")

Illinois Department of Transportation

2008-07-02T07:28:05.370-07:00

Illinois Department of Transportation

what's an Idot?

2008-07-02T07:00:57.273-07:00

what's an Idot?

LOL, You guys really need to take a chill pill. Bo...

2008-07-02T06:55:09.719-07:00

LOL, You guys really need to take a chill pill. Boy can you feel the tension in here. LOL

JT
http://www.Ultimate-Anonymity.com